The US' dithering over Gulen's extradition following the July 15

IBRAHIM KURTULUS

7/9/2021

 NY 

Turkey is marking the 5^th anniversary of July 15^th coup attempt. Public resistance resulted in the deaths of 251 people. The coup was orchestrated by a group or factions within Turkey’s military, colluded with Fetullah Gulen organization. They used tanks, warplanes and helicopters to try to overthrow the government. Gulen is in the United States and U.S delays the extradition. 

İbrahim Kurtuluş is known as a successful businessman in Turkey. He's very well known within the Turkish community and within New York City, especially in Staten Island where Republicans are dominant. He is very engaged in American politics. There are not any political candidates in the New York area who does not recognize him for the community activism.

We first had heard about his friendship relations with General Michael Flynn, the former head of Defense Intelligence Agency and former US National Security Advisor to President Trump over his effort on Fetullah Gülen's extradition case.

He is not a lawyer, but he has built a great network of relationships of reaching out within community. We had a chance to discussed FETO's income sources in the USA, its finances, the perception of the US institutions over the group; also, the lobby efforts of Turkey.

Serra Karacam: First of thank you for doing this.

Ibrahim Kurtulus: Thank you.

- General Flynn, Donald Trump's national security adviser and former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, his assessment is that FETO was the behind the July 15 coup attempt in Turkey. Turkey started the extradition process. We've heard repeatedly from the US Department of Justice, that there is not enough strong evidence about the involvement.  The process never progressed. What do you think Flynn saw about the organization's role in the coup, and why isn't what he saw seen by the US institutions?

Well, you know, General Flynn, lieutenant general Flynn, before he became National Security advisor, I've become very good friends with him, as he called that I am a family member of his. And he started to recognize and comprehend the depth of this group, this white-collar, criminal organization, because some of the educational background, that I provided him in guiding him in some of the signals and some of the things that he should be looking at. 

-How did you gather all the information?

How did I gather the information? Well just reading   about the cult movement, having interactions with them here. They've been here since the early mid 80s and understanding their motives over a period of a time, by questioning them on matters of history pertaining to World War One pertaining to Korean War and other things that just did not sound legitimate to me. I wasn't comfortable with the answers that I was getting. And I started having a feeling that they're not being transparent about some of their commentary to me, is when I recognized in the early to later part of the 80s and early 90s about the motives of the group, I wasn't able to prove it, but I was suspicious. 

-Okay, let's go back to question then what did he see that the US government does not see about his involvement on coup attempt, as a proof of their involvement?

Whatever he saw was basically of the information that I was feeding him about the data that I sent over to him about the group. Other American generals, like General Wesley Clark on what he said about the group, Former Pentagon officials that said about the group. So, any type of due diligence that I had gathered, I had forwarded to him. The General started looking into the group carefully himself. I didn't ask him what areas he looked, he was convinced that this is a cult movement and it's a national threat to America.

General Flynn and Ibrahim Kurtulus.

"WHEN AMERICAN INTERESTS ARE DONE WITH HIM, THEN MAYBE”

-Did the all the information you provided include any facts? Why then did not the Department of Justice go further with the process?

 It's a great question. I think it also comes down to like, a former Congressman that was in my living room. He said the following: “When American interests is done with him, then maybe” …

-What is that interest?

Well, that's the question. What is the interest that America…?

- Using their schools in the former USSR brake away new State for example? (Using their schools to have a better hold on those countries) 

 I mean look, it could be anything. America has many motives throughout the world, infiltrating ex-soviet blocks of making sure that they have American influence in these new states that have emerged in Asia and the Far East Asia. It could be contingent upon, you know, natural resources in that area and they may be using this group as a front. 

-Do you think group is globally big? What is the size of the group as a religious organization? 

Yeah, I'm not sure how big it is? But what I've gathered as far as my due diligence looks like is they have a fifty-billion-dollar network worldwide in many countries 

-Still working after all the efforts Turkey put into stopping them.

I am sure they've lost some type of attraction in some countries, like in the Balkans and some Turkic states. But, you know, I got to believe there's still at least sixty to seventy percent still active worldwide 'm sure in Africa also, of course.

- So, because of that, could you say that deep state in America protects them because of the possible interest relationship?

 Well look, you know it's undoubting that Gulen movement, they are franchise and I call it franchise, they're selling themselves in a peaceful interfaith type of role and I'm sorry to tell you, but a lot of people in a pre-nine eleven World, eating this sub, especially when they are presenting a case of wanting to break bread with Christians and Jews and celebrating Hanukkah and Christmas and Thanksgiving and Ramazan together. You know, people need, interested in such “peaceful movements.”

We had a chance to discuss about the perception of US institutions over the group.

- And extradition case. Are they protected despite all the legitimate legal facts being presented? Turkey's representatives do not talk about the legal battle, and maybe that's what it takes to go safer.

Yeah, listen I'm not a lawyer so I don't I haven't looked at any files that was presented by NATO Ally of Turkey to American jurisdiction to State Department or to any other institution in America. 

But it's indisputable in my mind that there are larger forces and powers that may not want institutions like the FBI, State Department or any other institution in America to go further in their due diligence especially when the network has infiltrated deep relationships within NGOs, government levels and government officials that are in the halls of power. 

You know, when you have politicians like Joe Borelli from Richmond County who basically have sworn to protect American national interests and make sure that our district is safe, and no matter what you say to this man, when their relationship that he's built over a course of 10 years, 15 years, 20 years; It's very hard to shatter the mindset of a relationship that's been established. 

The trust is there. 

So, when will the American institutions on the stand more of the threat? I don't know, but I think sooner rather than later, because America is the one that's saying, see something, say something, and we need to be vigilant in a pre 9/11 World, especially with the 20th anniversary of 9/11 coming up that we need to take every threat seriously.

- At the federal level, can this organization locate their members within American institutions? Is there any intelligence, investigation or at least a perception in the US about a structuring like in Turkey?

It's a great question. If the any individual that implements rule of law and follows the rules and regulations with having their alternative motives still within them, it’s very hard to detect someone's wrongdoing until they are out of line. Look, I'll give you one great example. There's no doubt in my mind that this this whole movement is using the ROTC program.

Have you ever heard of the ROTC program, ROTC program is called The High School, junior Reserve Officers Training Program of the United States military? So, student in high school can still get their education. Still go to high school but also be a part-time officer and go into the military training as they are a high school student. So, there's no doubt in my mind that this group is infiltrating institutions in America by using programs like the US military has of the ROTC program. So yes, I believe that they are following on copying similar steps that they implemented in many other states around the world especially in Turkey of infiltrating the judicial system, the halls of power, police system or any other Intel agency that America has. By some of the programs and opportunities and freedoms that this country is given. So yes, I believe that that is taking place today. 

-On their structuring within the Turkish army, there is an opinion within the Turkish army that they are acting in the name of the American interests. Can the same weapon hit the U.S.? 

I mean, it's a great question. I'm not quite sure, so I'm not going to do with comment on something, I don't know. 

At the end of the day, every threat needs to be taken seriously, every step that needs to be taken that may be a threat which needs to be investigated as Former ambassador Jeffrey says, "we need to examine this cult movement here in the United States to see what type of laws that they've broken here in America and what type of laws they are breaking here as they did in Turkey."

Look, Publicly, the Gulen Movement and their franchises sell themselves as a peaceful interfaith group.  I’m sorry to tell you this; many Americans gladly buy into these wolves in sheep’s clothing the group is not transparent. Their goals are to expend their Influence in the halls of power or Political world, law enforcement, intelligence their goal is to get into key positions to have more power and to have friends in critical end points. They are an instructional threat to United States on all levels of government. The group is a cult movement that has a dark side to them. They aim is to infiltrate into government institutions and enlarge their global economic and political influence. And spread tehir brand of white collar terrorism. 

Kurtulu's house in Long Island, NY.

- There have been a couple of lawsuits related to their schools. Mostly about forced donations and gathering income through charter schools allegations.  Apart from these, has there been any other development on the legal ground?

 Well, to my understanding there's something, that the FBI is investigating. But it seems like, how long does it take for an investigation to not conclude. And that tells me that someone is telling the FBI and their agents, leave that file and go to Dunkin Donuts.

-The process that started with the Hrant Dink murder; After the attacks on Zirve publishing house, coup cases were initiated using these events. Investigations launched on possible preparations made for a coup attempt within the army.

Who do you think these cases hurt the most, do you think they weakened the Turkish army? What do you think about the view that there is an outside force behind it?

Turkey has always been on the threat by radical movements by communism, by many groups that have alternative motives to destroy the unity and security of Turkey. This is indisputable, this is a proven fact. This group, there's no doubt in my mind through their influence and their threats and blackmailing have had of course damaged to the institutions of Turkey and its well-being in the western world or within the world. Absolutely Turkey has suffered because of this and their movements and their motives...

“AMERICAN DOMESTIC AND FOREIGN POLICIES ARE FOR SALE”

-Among the donors of the Democratic Party in America, are there businessmen who once or still support this organization? Do they still have a strong lobby in the American Congress, and if so, where does this power come from?

I have a saying American domestic and foreign policies are for sale... That's why campaign Finance needs to be restructured in America. Can you imagine a particular group that has a large contribution base, can influence a politician? So, I believe, yes, this group, this cult movement has continued to make political contributions to influence politicians in the halls of power. One great example. Councilman from Richmond County, Joe Borelli, this man has traveled to Turkey, has taken campaign contribution from the terrorist group.

-Who does the donations in the name of the organization?

 Well, listen, you can donate if you're an American citizen, right? So, anyone could who wants to be engaged in the political system of America...

-Do you know who are the people acting on behalf of them and making donations?

No, I don't know of anyone. I don't think any organization can be unless you're a political pack...

Well, as we look back today now, it's water under the bridge, but of course, there were ones with motives that wanted to have influence. It is all about influence and that's what they were doing. They were funneling money into the channels of power to make sure that their cult movement gets to the next level of power. 

“THEY ARE LAUNDERING MONEY THROUGH SCHOOLS”

-Where does the money come from?

 Well, it’s coming from charter schools in the United States. Right now, the money goes through these schools into subcontracting with their allies and with their friends, that come to repair the school or have stationary material to sell the school etc... That's how they are laundering their money, through these channels of charter schools in the United States which is right down netting them almost a billion dollars of American taxpayer money.

-There are some statements that putschists presented some reasons for a coupe  on July 15; "Turkey will leave NATO, NATO soldiers within the Turkish Army will be liquidated,". We even read opinions that General Flynn actually affirmed the coup in the first place for these reasons. Today, cooperation is on the agenda again in Afghanistan. America also seems to care about this (Turkey's security role there). What is your comment? 

It is indisputable Turkey today has the second most powerful military in NATO. Turkey has stood with the Western world since the cold war is was a corner brick in the Cold War in protecting the southern flank of Europe. Today Turkey in NATO has a greater role for security for Europe and Asia.

So, NATO without Turkey, I think will be much weaker and may not have the presence of power that Turkey provides to protect and to safeguard the southern flank of Europe or Asia into Afghanistan. And we see that the cooperation that's continuing in Afghanistan today.

I must disagree with the commentaries of the ladder. Turkey in NATO is more powerful. 

-Is it possible for the Biden administration to be convinced that the PYD is an extension of the PKK and change strategy towards Syria? What are the reasons behind of double standard?

Listen, unfortunately interests come first, you know, playing "your terrorist is a good terrorist, my terrorist is a bad terrorist” attitude will never work against defeating terrorism, unfortunately, interests are coming before long-term security. 

We saw what has happened in Afghanistan, America then supported the wrong group the Taliban / Mujahaddin at the time. And look what has happened to.

- It was against USSR / Russia though, 

It was against USSR /Russia, but knowing that you were supporting a radical group, you knew that you were, you knew you were supporting a group that may have been a threat. But at that moment in time, the interests were more important. I think, in this instance, it's the national interest of America seems to offset any other concern that an ally may have...

-General Flynn's company, Intel Group, and Ekim Alptekin's company in Germany signed an agreement. And we watched the lawsuit filed in the US judiciary. Two names were penalized for not being a registered lobbyist. As Ekim Bey did not attend the hearing, he faced a more disadvantageous outcome. And again, under pressure from the Armenian diaspora in California, the PR company that Turkey has contracts with did not want to work. There are criticisms that Turkey did not get positive results when worked with US lobby firms. It has come to the point of "If there is no result despite certain payments, we should not do any work." What do you think?

I've said to Turkish politicians many times; having a Lobby firm   it's a good thing it is not a bad thing but what they have to do is visit US Federal, City, and State politicians to build more of a one on one relationship. Just as Israeli heads of states do when they visit US. Look let me tell you. When Benjamin Netanyahu then Prime Minister of Israel visits US, he spends more time visiting City and State politicians because those local elected officials tomorrow will become Congress and US Senator or Presidents. Turkish Politician must stop wasting so much time with only Turkish community and dedicate %85 of their time to building relationship on all of US and local governments. When was the last time Foreign Minister of Turkey ever meet a local New York City councilmen? Then they should visit Turkish NGOs to talk about the importance of Turkey to US to local Turkish groups or NGOs.

Lobby  firms, haven't been that effective is because when you go to a politician's office, he knows that's a lobbyist that's coming into his office, he will give him time, he will listen to his argument, BUT the chances of implementing or taking what he says tremendously serious, is very low on the rector scale versus a contingency of his constituents in his district, coming to him with similar arguments, will be much more heavier weight  for him to take into account versus a lobbying firm. So, empowering individuals, educating them is what I think will be more powerful than a lobbying firm. 

-Are you talking about Turkish American associations?

Yes, of course. Absolutely.

-What is your assessment of their current efforts? Some think-tanks organize research, some organize panel discussions on some issues that include the views of American experts and analysts. They have a presence on social media. And what do you think about those nonprofits?

Look, we are a new community in America, North America, we are a young community, we came to this great country. The majority of the Turkish Community has come here in the latter part of the Clinton Administration. There's been a lot of work that has been accomplished. A lot of things have been accomplished by the work of individuals, NGOs, Turkish American NGOs here in the United States, nonprofit organizations. Is it enough? Absolutely not. Can more be done? Yes, but let's not forget another situation. 

A lot of these NGOs that have mushroomed up in the last 20, 30 years or ones that have been older like, one organization that's been around for 60 years. Their mentality is not equating to the understandings of influence on what influence may have in America. They're more aligned with cultural identity versus political involvement. What is political involvement? What can be done? And individual just visiting their Congressman, the Senators, the state senators, the city council members will have a profound effect on a politician of understanding, much more of the needs and well-beings of a community that he or she represents. That politician will take that individual that constituent's needs into account versus any other institution, like a lobbyist. 

So, a lot of good has happened. A lot of things could continue to be better. And we’re a young community. Our community is not well established yet. They're more interested in putting bread on the table. Then begging more engaged in the community or with other ethnic groups or politicians. Our community doesn't understand that just going to a politician's office with Dunkin Donuts and coffee and saying, "I am a Turkish American and I live down the block from your office. I am a voter; I am a taxpayer" will have great influence. Just a cup of coffee.can build a relationship that will give results to help the community with better schools, better services and better understanding of a Modern Western anchored Muslim country like NATO Ally of Turkey....

-So as you say according to the last couple of years data of USCIS, every year around, 3,000 Turkish people have citizenship. So, all these Turks have different ideology, all support different political parties. Do you think supporters of current ruling party in Turkey and Turks from different ideologies, is there a good understanding of being Turkish American and is there a unity among them?

 Yeah, I think it's a great question. I'm going to give you an example, "Long live the snake that doesn't touch me.”  Unfortunately, until a family experience of discrimination, until a family understands political pressure, racism, Islamophobia, unfortunately people are more going to be excited about Fenerbahce and Galatasaray and Rizespor, Giresunspor, than these important issues that have a direct and indirect in impact of family within a district.

People Americans of Turkish descent must understand that the American political system and the structure is giving you an opportunity to be a voice in the political system. You may not speak well, you may not be diverse in English, it's okay. Most Americans don't speak English that well but being engaged with your local public officials will have a great effect.

-If a person is against the current administration in Turkey, the ruling party, they could be kind of happy to see that US/TR relationship to collapse... And some think that, the political party they support can succeed... Do you agree? What kind of impact this situation has over US-TR relations? Is it limiting the influence of Turkish Americans may have over US politics?

I do see that. Yes. 

-And is there a way to overcome this?

Listen that exists here among fellow Americans also, you know, of course, you know, It's sad. 

When it comes down to national interest we should not be on party sides, we should be on the better side of the national interest of the country that we live in and the country that we migrated from. We should help our fellow Americans better understand the National interest of America to maintain better relations.

It shouldn't be about one man. It should be about the long-term interest of both Nations where they going to be in the next 50 to 100 years. That should be the main objective. Emotional decisions will not bring you anywhere. You like Trump or you dislike him. Should not be the fact of deciding.

 If you like President Erdogan or not, should not be the main factor, you should look at the overall, good that administration does. That's how you should decide. 

- You tried to help to create the policies in favor of Turkey. You have repeatedly stated that you have no financial interests. You think that NGOs are more important than lobby/ PR companies, and that the Turks here should make their voices heard in order to achieve successful results. Why do you make so much effort for Turkey as an American who does most of his business here?

My family came to America with nothing... My mother came here at age 18. She has an elementary school education, my father came here to this great nation, as a professional tailor... America has done great deal for us. They didn't give us everything. They gave us an opportunity to move up. My mother managed many skyscrapers here in the United States. Barely speaking English. Her boss did not ask if she had master's degree. 

Her boss said, "do you have the willpower to work hard?" That's what America is about.

And why I work so hard to bridge both communities, and both Nations is because Mustafa Kemal Ataturk’s Turkey a country I feel is very important to American national interests. When you look at the structure and the debt and the demographics that has come about in the last, almost 100 years, a lot of nations around Turkey, till this day live with despotism and look at Turkeys as an example. So, my role is to educate my fellow Americans to let them understand that Turkey is strategically very important as a predominantly Muslim Western Society...

That also has a rotating influence that can go all the way out to South Korea and that can reach all the way into Spain. And we need to nurture this. My friends went to Iraq. And they died. Kids I went to school with. Why? Because the administration's attitude was to "export democracy."

Well, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk gave to the Western World the freedoms to women, freedom of voting, economic prosperity has come about over the last hundred years. Why would you not support this? Why would you not bring more awareness to this? Do you want to see a Turkey that resembles Afghanistan? Or do you want to see a Turkey that resembles us here in Staten Island, and Brooklyn, and New York, and Manhattan, or the heart of America, which would you prefer? 

Turkey has elected a woman prime minister of predominately Muslim Society. Women have a right to vote, and they voted prior to women voting in Switzerland. Why would you not nurture this society? So, it's important for me to educate my fellow Americans about a prosperous Turkey that will benefit American interest and European interest in the most chaotic region of the world. 

-You have close relations with South Korean businessmen and the South Korean diplomatic mission. There was a Korean businessman in you were referring in your past statements about General Flynn's participation on some conference organizations and paid speeches. Where is your relationship with South Korea based on?

You know 71 years ago; my mother's homeland and her people went to a land that they never knew.

They went to help other people that they never met.

All they knew was that freedom was at stake.

And they went to a war in 1950, where the Korean people woke up in the morning of June 25th with cannons and guns, exploding on the land of Korea. My mother's homeland of NATO allied now; NATO Ally of Turkey has lost 976 soldiers.

176 of them till this day their daughter’s, their wives, their grandkids are still waiting for those Turkish soldiers to come back home. My efforts are so Turkish and Korean people stop reading about each other in the newspaper. They should meet each other more face to face.